Persepolis creator Marjane Satrapi passed away earlier this month, so we recorded an emergency episode to discuss her work.
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Credits:
Hosts: Klint Finley and John Ekleberry
Music: krudler.bandcamp.com
Comics Journal article on her work and legacy
Mentioned this episode:
Marx for Beginners by Rius
MetaFilter thread on finding the dialectic materialism comic book
Excerpt from an interview where she said it was the only comic book she had
Epileptic by David B. (She had a falling out with David B., according to the Comics Journal article, which I suppose is why he is not thanked in volume 2)
Embroideries by Marjane Satrapi (2003)
Chicken with Plums by Marjane Satrapi (Graphic novel, 2004)
Chicken with Plums film (2011)
Radioactive film (2019)
(Her great uncle plays a tar, not a violin, in the graphic novel version)
(See her filmography for more)
Rush transcript:
Klint (00:13)
Welcome to Sewer Mutant, the podcast for weirdos like you. I’m Klint Finley, joined as always by my co-host John Ekleberry, and our music is by Krudler. Today we’re doing an emergency episode on Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi. Satrapi recently passed away at the age of 56, a tragic end to a life full of tragedy. before we dive into it, John, I had a a question. ⁓ have have you ever served in the military?
John (00:39)
No, no, I have not. how about you?
Klint (00:41)
No, I haven’t. And I I kinda wondered because you you had brought up that ⁓ Jim Starlin and James O’Barr were both veterans and ⁓ I don’t know if that had like resonated with you for that for ⁓ for some reason, so it’s I think it’s safe to say that neither one of us have any experience ⁓ living in under war times. Okay. Yeah. Just just wanted that as a little bit of background context. So
John (00:59)
That’s true. Yeah.
Klint (01:05)
Yeah, so Persepolis is a graphic memoir by ⁓ by Satrapi. volume one covers her girlhood in Iran against the backdrop of the Iranian Revolution and the Iran-Iraq War. And then volume two covers her life as an immigrant in Austria from the ages of fourteen to eighteen, and then her return ⁓ to Iran and her first marriage. But we’re we’re gonna talk mostly about volume one today,
the the series was originally published in France ⁓ from between two thousand and two thousand three
so it was this is a little bit outside of what we usually cover, ⁓ even though 2000 kind of falls right on the line at the end of the dark age of comic books. But but really like European comics are outside of that the ages of comics as as we usually discuss them. But s Satrapi’s just she’s very important in comics and in the maturity of the medium, I think.
Persepolis is is become it’s up there now with mouse in terms of people looking at comics in a serious way and we’ve seen her importance I think really underscored since since her death. ⁓ so her f her friend said that she died of sadness following the death of her husband.
I don’t know exactly what that means, ⁓ but there is something called broken heart syndrome or stress induced cardiomyopathy. And it’s it’s most commonly seen in postmenopausal women after ⁓ a sudden stress. And we know that she had a a history of smoking, a history of depression, family history of heart problems, and yeah, the the Iran War could the new Iran war could not have helped things. But I I don’t wanna speculate
any further than that. But the the French president Emmanuel Macron made a statement when she died, which that also just that underscores like just how important she is and the respect that that comics have as a as a medium in France. Like Donald Trump didn’t make a statement when Stan Lee died. Joe Biden didn’t make a statement when Neil Adams died. I did see that Japan’s chief ⁓ cabinet secretary gave a statement about the death of Dragon Ball Z creator Akira Toriyama
But also so did Macron. So ⁓ it’s just it’s a country that that respects the medium. And so Trappy was just really, I think, one of the the the the top people in the medium. so just just enormously influential right now. ⁓ so what did you ⁓ what did you think of volume one, John?
John (03:22)
I mean it’s just a beautiful book. It’s ⁓ I mean it’s cheesy to say this, but it is really about the endurance of the human spirit because like this book is really funny and it’s really it’s really light, given the fact that this is a book about a child enduring, you know, regime changes and violence in her country and ⁓ trying to navigate growing up in that and and you know, what her parents endure and her her extended family endures. And ⁓
I I love this book. I thought this book was really fantastic. ⁓ the the humor in particular and ⁓ just I I I found myself smiling so often throughout reading this.
Klint (03:58)
Yeah, and it it’s interesting. I mean, we’re both basically middle aged men who grew up in a completely different culture, but I I mean that you talk about the human spirit, there is something that’s always still relatable, reading about people’s childhoods, that there’s something you know, that that there is a a a commonality there. So eve you I can read it and th and think, you know, yeah, that lot of the the the playground humor and how
something very serious just turns into a joke to the to the little kids who don’t understand it. ⁓ yeah, I I I feel like I can relate to that and remember a lot of these exper the the way a lot of things felt as a child, ⁓ reading the story through her eyes. ⁓ but at the same time also it’s I her life is just so so different from mine and from ours. And that gives it also a a lot of ⁓ a a lot of interest, I guess, of of to to see this this world through.
through what she went through and the people around her, especially.
John (04:53)
I guess it’s worth mentioning that we’re both ⁓ well about ten years younger than she is, so we’re, you know, seeing things that happen like as this book’s happening and as her childhood’s happening, that’s like right around the time I was being born. And, you know, same for you as well.
Klint (05:07)
Yeah, yeah. So I the ⁓ the Iran hostage crisis is I think that that’s the thing that most people I think in the US think about and know about the Iranian revolution, even though it happened a little bit after the revolution. and that happened I think before that happened before we were born, and so all of this is you know, the some of these very key historical moments are things we have no even childhood memory of.
but and and that’s also part of what though is really interesting about some of this, like the the the hostage crisis gets only a single page in here, even though for Americans that looms incredibly large in our consciousness, in in terms of our relationship to Iran, but it it’s it’s only one page in here because it’s filtered through the a child’s perspective and why it’s important to her at that time.
Is that it means that she won’t be able to visit her friend in the United States because Iranians won’t be able to get visas to go there. and and I I I thought that was really interesting. ⁓ I d I d I don’t know, that might sound like a criticism or something, but of her, but it’s it’s it’s not. I think it’s it ⁓ she’s really capturing something there about the ⁓ perspective that is that’s just
radically gonna be different from ours.
John (06:17)
absolutely. Just their ability to exist day to day with ⁓ you know the looming threats and with with the uncertainty of things changing and you know, from one day to the next there could be different people in power, or you could be, you know, worried that your neighborhood’s gonna get bombed, or you could be you know, worried that you’re not gonna be able to go to school anymore, things like that. And, you know, we see this in other places around the globe too, but I I felt like it was really superhumanized here.
for me. A and a good history lesson, honestly. This the this was a good history lesson for me.
Klint (06:45)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean it the history is is in there in broad strokes. I really feel like it it exposes for me the the need to learn more about the Iranian revolution and its aftermath and as as well as the Iran-Iraq war, which I I think is very important to modern current events, ⁓ but it it’s not something that we really learn a whole lot about, I think, in in the US. So
One of the other ⁓ y you know, you were talking about the like the w the war and and the and that impact. There was also of course the the ⁓ the cultural revolution that happened and and a big shift where
she’s old enough to remember n not having to wear the veil in public or wear the veil to school and then suddenly one day she has to. And that’s another one of the the you know, having that that child’s perspective where they go to school and they they don’t understand why they have to wear the veil and they wanna play with the veils and do things like with the veils instead of wearing them properly. And ⁓ it that that also it it brings another of the of the elements of day-to-day life there where she has to be constantly
Considering whether is she gonna get in trouble for wearing American sneakers in public or and it it some of this comes up more in volume two, wearing makeup in public can get her into trouble. And there’s this constant need to be vigilant about how you she’s expressing herself and what the consequences of that could end up being. And that’s that’s something else that
as as as white men in America, we we just do not have to to consider I I kind of it’s interesting I I was thinking about this is really different on one hand from from other things we’ve read, but I I can also see some comparisons. ⁓ so one is is Alex Sinner and that it’s told is these more naturalistic stories, kind of episodic stories.
and told from a the perspective of essentially ⁓ refugees in another country. even though the the the point of view character in that is is an American guy, the the creators are Argentinian who have who had left Argentina. And I I I feel like there’s some you can kind of see some some similarities in how they think about the world and and express that through their work.
And then the other is V for Vendetta, which deals ⁓ you know, it it’s got a lot of the action and violence of of V, but it also we get some of Evie’s life and the day what it’s like day to day living under a regime.
John (09:08)
Absolutely. And and for anybody that hasn’t read this, ⁓ I guess it’s worth mentioning that the book is kind of structured in like little vignettes that each have their own titles, but they’re more or less presented chronologically. So the whole thing really does read with a nice flow from beginning to end. but there are like little segments that you can go back to and revisit, and I I really like all the little titles, you know, throughout and how she recounts, you know, these different different snippets of her life.
Klint (09:33)
Yeah, I had wondered if it was maybe serialized in a magazine or something first, but as far as I can tell it’s not. Like that that’s just how she chose to structure it.
Klint (09:41)
yeah, so what did you think about the the art in this?
John (09:43)
I yeah, the art was great. It’s it’s really graphically pleasing and it’s super clear, you know, what’s going on in the story. And I I think that you know, when she’s trying to tell an anecdote or she’s trying to show a joke or whatever, there’s just there’s a lot of fluidity to it. it’s it’s really really solid. I because you know sometimes you read some of the small press stuff in particular, and you have to kind of discern what’s going on in the art. And for me
This wasn’t like that at all. It was such an easy read.
Klint (10:09)
Yeah, it really ⁓ just steps away, I guess. There’s some artists where you have the art is very it’s art forward, it’s very in your face, and then this is is something where you almost forget that the art is there, even though it’s doing a lot of heavy lifting, telling the story. I don’t know if I’m explaining that well.
John (10:26)
No, I I I think I understand exactly what you’re saying because this is this is a story first, you know, thing. Not that the cartooning’s not important because it is, but it’s it’s just a device to help her tell this story. It’s not really it’s not trying to be just about the graphic nature of the medium. You know, it’s it’s not just trying to have a cool picture that then we figure out what words we want to put with it. It’s really about the words.
Klint (10:48)
That’s yeah, that’s interesting ’cause I I hadn’t necessarily thought about that ’cause she is so much an artist and in in volume two it she goes to art school and stuff, so we s we see that. But ⁓ I mean obviously she’s also a writer and yeah, th it it really is more about the story than her trying to, I guess, show off her artwork. but again, like it I mean it’s it’s really good. It’s just that
It it’s it takes a back seat, it feels like, to the rest of the book.
John (11:14)
yeah, I’d never really thought about comics this way before, but you know, if you think about particularly the era that we’re covering, the Dark Age, you know, in the nineties American comics are all about getting in your face with the art and then figuring out, you know, kind of the story second. Whereas some of these ⁓ more personal comics and these European comics are more about the story and then having the art match that and service it.
Klint (11:38)
Yeah, yeah. and ⁓ and one of the the the the books that it’s most commonly compared to is Mouse and and Mouse is sort of the same way where it the artwork is very it’s simple and understated even though there’s in Mouse he makes the decision to make you know have all the characters be anthropomorphic, it still has this like very like natural feel to it.
But that’s you know, that’s not to say that that European comics can’t be hyper stylized. I mean, obviously Alex Cinner is extremely stylized, but but I think you’re right that it’s it’s it’s in service of the story and and not ⁓ kind of a Rob Liefeld type thing where the image comes first and the justification for the image ⁓ happens later. but the y you can see a lot of stylized work like so the
epileptic is another thing that comes to mind for me reading Persepolis. He’s the the the creator of it, David B, is even thanked in volume one. He was a co-founder of L’Essociation, which is the publisher of the French edition of Persepolis. And he did a memoir called Epileptic about growing up with his brother who is has epilepsy or had epilepsy. And it’s it’s also a very stylized work.
⁓ in a in a way that I feel like ⁓ Persepolis isn’t, but it but as you say, it it definitely serves the the story that’s being told.
Klint (12:50)
So she didn’t have much experience with comics before she made this comic. but growing up she had one comic book. that according to what she said in interviews, this is the only one she had. ⁓ in the in Persepolis she describes it as a comic book about dialectic materialism. and so f
Fans have figured out it it seems to be a book called Marks for Beginners that was published in nineteen seventy six by Pantheon, who published the the US edition of Persepolis. So there’s a nice continuity there.
John (13:20)
I’d like to like to explore more of her work, What what beyond this is is there on her bibliography? I d I usually look into that before we do these things, but ⁓ I haven’t really really looked. Does she have a body of work outside of this?
Klint (13:35)
Yeah, she has at least a couple other things that have been translated to English. One is ⁓ called embroideries, and that’s ⁓ conversations with Iranian women, seemingly ol somewhat older Iranian women, including her grandmother, ⁓ mostly about sex. It’s very frank, a lot of frank discussions about sexuality in Iran and the and and these women’s experiences and
⁓ then another one ⁓ called Chicken with Plums, that is about I think a great uncle of hers who was a violin player in the 1950s. So so two other nonfiction works. And she also she co-directed the film adaptation of Persepolis, which is animated and it covers both volumes of Persepolis. It it really kind of glosses over.
a lot, but most of the best stories are are in there. and has some really nice stylized animation and ⁓ she directed a film about Marie Currie, the scientist.
⁓ and that’s actually a a live action film.
John (14:36)
that’s really interesting. ‘Cause she mentions in the book, you know, studying Marie Curry and wanting to be like her and wanting to grow up to be be like her. So that’s that’s actually super cool. I’d I’d love to watch that.
Klint (14:45)
Yeah, and I I think there’s also a film of chicken with plums.
John (14:49)
That’s very cool. Yeah. I I definitely am excited to explore more of her body work for sure.
Klint (14:55)
Yeah. It’s the other thing that kind of stood out for me is that the even though she’s she’s really critical of the of the regime, ⁓ it the book really isn’t like anti Islam or anti Iranian. she clearly loves her country. she had said in interviews that she wanted to go back to Iran and ⁓ she wanted to die there or at least be buried there, so hopefully they’re gonna be f able to find some way to get her her body back there.
you given everything that’s been going on. ⁓ I don’t know. but I was really seeing it initially as maybe like this is like Islam versus sec secularism, but you know, even though she struggles with her faith, she never rejects Islam.
It’s the regime. It’s very much just an anti-regime story. And it it’s just this small group of people making the sh decisions for this huge country and all these people in it. And it’s ⁓
feel like that’s at its core what it what it really the story it really tells is the the implications of people h trying to hold on to power
John (15:52)
And for the society itself just kind of ⁓ maintaining, you know, their ⁓ resistance to that, you know, whether whether it just be whether it be through protest or whether it be through just, you know, having parties or, you know, doing things that aren’t approved of that keeps their life, you know, functioning and moving the way that they want it to.
Klint (15:59)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I think yeah, I think you’re really right there about the the human spirit element of it and how as as much as the regime tries to to control people, they ultimately are not controllable.
John (16:24)
Well and seeing her p the the way that she portrays her parents in this too was ⁓ was really interesting as me for as an adult, you know, and as a parent, seeing the way that her parents kind of try to navigate this situation, you know, they themselves protest and they themselves ⁓ try to do what they can to maintain the way that they think their lives should be and the way that their daughter’s life should be, regardless of what’s going on.
you know, outside and and I don’t know. It it’s a beautiful story.
Klint (16:54)
Yeah, and her grandmother as well is is doesn’t get that much screen time, I guess, but is is really interesting. And ⁓ something we find out in embroideries is that she was married three times and she got divorced, ⁓ at a time when sh so just nobody in Iran got divorced. So there’s you can see like a certain amount of of family history of of bucking trends, I guess, and like you said, they you know
her parents protest and but they’re also tr you know, they they want to protect their daughter and and keep her safe in this this changing world. And you know, that’s the tragedy one of the tragedies of it is you know they they love her so much that they send her away because they recognize that her life in Iran is not gonna be what they want for her or what she wants for herself. And it’s gotta be like just one of the hardest things for a a parent to ever do.
John (17:41)
Yeah, absolutely.
Klint (17:42)
All right, well I think we can we can call it there. ⁓ if we don’t have anything else, definitely pick this up and we will ⁓ talk again soon. ⁓ I think we are gonna be talking about ElfQuest with a special guest.
John (17:55)
Yeah, I’m looking forward to that. That’ll be great.
Klint (17:57)
⁓